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2/29/198800 7 m a -3 MINUTES OF AN ADJOURNED MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL CITY OF ROLLING HILLS, CALIFORNIA February 29, 1988 An adjourned meeting of the City Council of the City of Rolling Hills was called to order at 6:37 p.m., in the Theater Arts Building at Miraleste High School, 29323 Palos Verdes Drive East, Rancho Palos Verdes, California, by Mayor Swanson. MEETING RECESSED The meeting was recessed at 7:21 p.m. M4:4Dye$ZOO "12Ld01Zit" "1361 Mayor Swanson reconvened the meeting at 7:39 p.m. ROLL CALL i*-a**4Zy1F PAIT-1:004F ALSO PRESENT: PUBLIC HEARING Councilmembers Heinsheimer, Leeuwenburgh, Murdock, Pernell, Mayor Swanson None Terrence L. Belanger L. D. Courtright Betty Volkert Kathy Uros Ann Johnson Anne La Jeunesse William Bennett Walter Kreutzen William Strauss Steve Tedesco Rick Zeiser Approximately 175 City Manager City Treasurer Deputy City Clerk Secretary Los Angeles Times Peninsula News ASL Consulting Engineer Evensen-Dodge Richards, Watson, & Gershon Law Firm ASL Consulting Engineer Zeiser Geotechnical Residents Mayor Swanson reviewed some of the history of the origin of the sewer feasibility study. The Mayor reported that at the Rolling Hills Community Association's 1985 and 1986 Annual Meetings there was a vote of the residents present at those meetings, requesting that the City undertake a sewer feasibility study. The process began in 1986. The reason for the delay in beginning this study was to be sure that this was something that the community desired since it would require a great deal of work and some expenditures, and also due to a change in City Managers. In November, 1986, Requests for Proposals for the Preliminary Feasibility Study of a Sanitary Sewer System were sent out.' The City Council formed a committee consisting of Councilwoman Leeuwenburgh and Councilwoman Murdock, who met with the City Manager and County engineers, to interview the seven firms that responded to the City's Request for Proposals. After interviewing these seven firms, Councilwoman Leeuwenburgh and Councilwoman Murdock returned to the City Council with two recommendations of two firms that were then interviewed by the entire City Council. As a result of that interview, the City Council selected ASL Consulting Engineers to prepare a Sanitary Sewer Feasibility Study for the City of Rolling Hills. The first draft of the Preliminary Sewer Feasibility Study was presented to the City Council at their meeting in December, 1987, at which there was a very small number of residents who participated. Tonight, the final draft of the Preliminary Sanitary Sewer Feasibility Study will be presented to the public as well as the Councilmembers, for the first time. Two engineers from ASL Consulting Engineers, Mr. Bennett and Mr. Tedesco, will present the final draft of the Sanitary Sewer Feasibility Study. Also, the City Council has invited other consultants to attend this meeting to address other aspects of the sewer system, i.e., geology/soils, financial, and legal. 74 Mayor Swanson reassured the audience that nothing would happen fast and nothing would happen that the residents don't wish to happen. The City Council would need a very clear indication from the community before proceeding with the next step, the engineering and design phase, which would require an expenditure of approximately $2,000,000. The Mayor continued that, for the purpose of discussion, should the decision be made to proceed with the engineering and design phase, the following step would be to formulate a financial plan, afterwhich, construction would begin. Mayor Swanson announced that tonight's presentations would be of a technical nature. The Mayor also informed the audience that for tonight's meeting, the City Council would be part of the audience and would neither deliberate this issue as a Council nor make any decisions. The Council will only receive information, both from the technical consultants and from the public. The format of the meeting would be as follows: first, the technical consultants will make their presentations in the order that they appear on the agenda with the exception of Mr. William Strauss, legal counsel, who will make his presentation last instead of third; after the technical presentations, there will be a question and answer period moderated by the Mayor. The Mayor requested that comments be kept to about 3 minutes. Mayor Swanson also said that if someone doesn't feel comfortable with speaking in public, they are welcome to write to the Council expressing their opinions. After this meeting, the Council will receive from the City staff a summary report of all the comments from the public and the technical experts. This matter will again be on the City Council agenda for their second meeting in March or their first meeting in April. All presentations will be made prior to any questions or comments. Mayor Swanson shared a quote, given to her by Mayor Pro Tem Murdock, of Anatole France who, in 1881 said, "In order that knowledge be properly digested it must have been swallowed with a good appetite." She said that she hoped everyone had a good appetite for knowledge tonight. Mayor Swanson introduced Mr. Bill Bennett and Mr. Steve Tedesco, of ASL Consulting Engineers, and presented their credentials. Mr. Bennett reported that ASL prepared detailed aerial photography of the contours to study the lay of the land, topography of the hills, and the terrain. They took a very general look at the types of systems that could be applied to our community. After researching several alternatives, it was their conclusion that the most cost-effective, in terms of the overall effectiveness in getting the sewage collected and treated, would be to put in a conventional sewer system which, given the overall nature and complexity of the City, isn't an easy thing to do. However, over the 30 to 50 year life of the system, this is probably the most efficient and most beneficial, in terms of the amount of dollars spent. Mr. Bennett introduced Mr. Tedesco, who continued the presentation for ASL using the overhead projector. Mr. Tedesco said that when they began the study, the first thing that they did was to determine how much sewage generation there would be in the City. Using Los Angeles County's standards, they determined that an average of 210,000 gallons per day of sewage was generated in the City. Next, they looked at alternate methods of treating and disposing this sewage. The first method that they researched was a conventional sewer system. A conventional system consists of gravity sewers, manholes, and in some areas sewage pumping stations. Mr. Tedesco then displayed an overlay on the overhead projector of a sample sewage pumping station for a conventional system. As was shown, the entire station, except for the electrical panel, is located below grade. Usually, the pumping station consists of two submersible pumps (a primary pump and a backup pump if one goes down), a wet well that collects the sewage, and a forced main system which contains piping in a vault that is pumped into the next gravity line. There are numerous systems like this located all over Los Angeles County. The Los Angeles County Engineers' office usually maintains them. The entire unit contains a '75 radio and control system so that if there are any problems the central station at the County is contacted by radio. These pumping stations are very reliable.: One problem with the conventional sewer pump station is the cost; they,are quite costly. The next system that they looked at was a pressure system. In a pressure system, in order to lower costs, each house is fitted with a pumping unit.. The base of the unit is usually about 30 -inches in diameter, contains controls and two pumps. This type of system would pump into a pressure main, and there would be pressure mains located all over the City. A pressure system is not subject to the problems of terrain. It can go uphill and downhill, and the lines don't have to be buried very deeply. However, there are numerous problems with these types of systems. One problem is that in a hilly area, such as our City, people on the downstream side and people on the upstream side always seem to be pumping at the wrong heads, thus contradicting each other. There are also some real maintenance problems. There are engineering firms that have designed these, however,'Mr. Tedesco said that their firm hasn't yet found a system of this type that they are comfortable with, one that they believe will work. A system like this has been implemented in Anchorage, Alaska. ASL Consulting 00 Engineers contacted them to see how it is functioning, and were informed that they have had constant problems with backups and the L pumps going down. If this type of system were installed in Rolling —� Hills, the entire pump unit becomes the homeowner's responsibility; co whereas, a conventional system, once it is installed and accepted by the County, becomes the County's responsibility to maintain. After Q looking at the maintenance problems and the terrain of Rolling Hills, this type of system was completely eliminated as a future alternative. The third alternative that was studied was a septic system. This system also has some problems, as reported by some of the residents of Rolling Hills. Residents have reported problems with backups and leach fields, and some geological problems in some areas. One possibility would be to setup an overall maintenance district to pump out the existing septic tanks on an annual basis. Those were the three methods that were researched. With regards to the conventional system, from the mapping and survey work that was done, ASL Consulting Engineers developed a system consisting of a series of gravity sewers and pump stations. The reasons for choosing this system over the others were: (1) that the majority of the gravity lines would be located in existing street rights-of-way, very few easements would be required and very few lines would have to cross other properties; (2) there would be as little construction as possible in the canyons; (3) environmentally, this type of system was the best; (4) it minimizes the construction time and the problems associated with construction; and, (5) it had the lowest cost of all the alternatives. This system could be constructed in phases, however, in any kind of phasing that is done the downstream portions must be constructed first. The total estimated construction cost for this alternative was $12.3 million. This is the cost of construction only. In addition to that cost, various other costs need to be added, such as: (1) contingencies to be set aside for construction problems; (2) design and assessment engineering costs; (3) costs for acquisition of easements; (4) legal costs; (5) financial consulting costs; (6) costs for having the plans checked through the County and processed through the County system; and, (7) financing and bonds discount costs. The total incidental costs would be approximately $3.9 million. Therefore, the total estimated cost to be financed would be $18.1 million. That concluded the presentation from ASL Consulting Engineers. Next, Mayor Swanson introduced Mr. Rick Zeiser of Zeiser Geotechnical, to give a presentation on the geology/soils aspect of the project. The Mayor informed the audience of Mr. Zeiser's credentials, afterwhich, the meeting was turned over to Mr. Zeiser to make his presentation. Mr. Zeiser said that he would be speaking on the geotechnical situation in the City of Rolling Hills, and would briefly and broadly give some background information on that topic and discuss various risk management strategies. Specifically, he would be looking at the in short-term and long-term alternatives, and what the impacts are on the City with respect to the proposed sanitary sewer system versus the septic system. Mr. Zeiser displayed a map prepared in 1976 by Mr. Cleveland, which was done for the Division of Mines and Geology in the State of California. Mr. Zeiser stated that in geology there are several components that are looked at which are important. One is the different types of units that exist and also the structure of those units. The structure of Rolling Hills is what is called an anticline, which means that the bedrock units have been uplifted so that they incline and are no longer horizontal. In this area, the anticline runs pretty much parallel to Crest Road. That means that the slopes that face towards the north are underlain with geologic units or beds which are inclined generally in that direction. If you go towards the south of Crest Road, most of the bedding planes are inclined toward the south. This means that in a hillside environment there exist situations known as slope stability or, as the case may be, slope instability. Mr. Zeiser displayed a map indicating, within specific areas of the City, several landslides or landslide complexes that have been postulated and identified by state geologists. As seen on the map, there were quite a few on the north facing slopes of the City. It has also been well documented that the south facing slopes also have some slide areas. When evaluating the geology and geologic units, the physical characteristics are studied, i.e., whether they are sand, clay or silts, etc. With respect to slope stability, there are two areas of concern, gravity and water. With the addition of water into the subsurface, be it bedrock or another material, as the soil is saturated and as certain minerals in the soil are saturated they tend to lose strength. Mr. Zeiser displayed another graph showing how different kinds of material lose their strength with the addition of water. The shear strength is reduced as the water content increases. Mr. Zeiser referred to a cross-section of ground water migration. Geologists are concerned with the impact of the long-term introduction of water into the subsurface. As water is introduced into the subgrade, it migrates until it is stopped by some natural barrier or boundary. Our local bedrock consists of very thin beds of alternating types of rocks (shale, silts, clay, etc.) which have been very fractured and broken, and they accept a lot of water. Historically, these systems tend to be closed systems and not open systems, therefore, the ground water tends to rise and tends to saturate the subsurface soil thereby promoting an increased level of instability. Mr. Zeiser displayed a diagram of water percolating down from on-site septic systems. Typically, this water drains down into the subgrade and migrates down until it hits some barrier and then it will migrate laterally, and it will seek the lowest elevation that it can. Over a period of time, the water level can build up. As the water builds up it begins to act on the soils and reduces its strength, which increases the probability of slope instability. Slope instability usually isn't instantaneous, it is something that builds up over a very long period of time. An historical example is Bluebird Canyon in Laguna Beach. The present thinking in engineering geology and geotechnical engineering is to try to minimize or mitigate any water going into the subsurface by collecting it and conducting it somewhere else. Also, as the community grows the introduction of water increases, and it is very difficult to predict what will happen with the increased water introduction. This concluded the presentation by Mr. Zeiser. Mayor Swanson introduced Mr. Walter Kreutzen from Evensen-Dodge, the financial consultant, and presented his credentials. Mr. Kreutzen stated that he would be presenting some cost scenarios based on the preliminary cost estimates developed by ASL Consulting Engineers, using $18,081,000 as a base figure. Mr. Kreutzen displayed a view graph of various methods of financing the project and maturity schedules of 10, 15, 20, 25, and 30 years for the various methods (hard copies of the view graph are available). The financing methods presented were General Obligation Bonds, Certificates of Participation, and Assessment or Revenue Obligations or Instruments. Also shown were the net interest costs, in today's market place, on a 30 year maturity bond or obligation, for the various types of financing: 7.84% for General Obligation Bonds; 8.25% for Certificates of Participation; and, 8.35; for Assessments and Revenues. The difference in the rates is that the underlying securities are deemed to be stronger or weaker, as the case may be, depending upon the given obligation. Using General Obligation Bonds J M as an example, a 10 year maturity of the annual debt service payments would be $2.5 million per year or $1.56 million per year for a 30 year maturity. This is the .same principle as home mortgages; the principal and interest on`'a'15,'1year loan will be higher than on a 30 year loan, but it would be for a shorter duration, thus, the net cost will be less over a 15 year period than over a 30 year period. Also calculated was the annual cost per acre using 1920 acres (equivalent to 3 square miles). For example, again using the General Obligation Bonds financing method with a maturity of 30 years, a one acre lot would_ owe $813 per acre per year. If an individual owned a five acre lot, it would cost that same figure times five ($813 x 5 = $4065 per year). The annual cost per lot was calculated by taking the total annual debt service divided by the number of lots in the City, identified to be 710. On a General Obligation Bond, for 30 years, the annual cost per lot would be $2197 per year. If the system were to be paid for outright on a cash basis, the initial one-time cash contribution per lot would be $25,366.00. Mr. Kreutzen again stressed that these figures were preliminary and would be subject to change based upon final design and engineering. This concluded the presentation by the financial consultant. 00 Mayor Swanson introduced Mr. Bill Strauss, from the City's r"i municipal law firm of Richards, Watson & Gershon, who would be giving Lo the final presentation of the evening. The Mayor commented that, although Mr. Mike Jenkins is the attorney for the City, Mr. Strauss m is an expert in financing districts, therefore, the firm asked him to Q represent the City tonight. Mr. Strauss stated that if the City Council concluded that there was support in the community to proceed and that the engineering and geology considerations were feasible, and the economics and proposed financing were feasible, there are a number of different legal procedures which the Council could avail themselves of in order to implement the financing. The City can issue General Obligation Bonds after the adoption of resolutions and ordinances but, more importantly, only after there has been approval by two-thirds (2/3) of the registered voters in the City voting to incur that indebtedness. In other words, those bonds can only be issued upon two-thirds majority vote of the registered voters in the City, voting in the election. The General Obligation Bonds would be repaid from taxes that would be levied on each parcel of property in the City, and the tax would be levied at a uniform rate and would be levied against the assessed valuation of the property. This means that a parcel of property that has a higher assessed valuation would be paying a greater portion of the tax. Mr. Strauss then discussed assessments. An assessment could be levied on the parcels within a district which would be deemed to be benefited by these proposed improvements. Benefited, under the law, means that the improvements that were installed and constructed would tend to enhance the value of the property. In order to levy an assessment the City must go through a procedure whereby they provide notice and an opportunity to be heard at a public hearing where property owners would have an opportunity to protest. If there was not a majority protest and the Council decided to proceed to levy the assessment, the property owners would have an opportunity, within the next 30 days, to pay their assessment in cash (estimated to be $25,000), however, if the property owner chooses not to pay the entire $25,000 in cash, the City would issue bonds in th aggregate amount of all unpaid assessments of $25,000, and the property owners would then, in effect, pay the principal and interest on that assessment bond over its term (typically anywhere from 15 to 30 years) . There is another type of tax which could be levied.to support the payment of Municipal Bonds used to construct the sewer system; it is called a Special Tax. It would be levied in connection with a proceedings undertaken, which is provided for by law and is commonly known as the Mellow -Roos Community Facilities Act. The Mellow -Roos Community Facilities Act is an act that provides for the levy of a special tax and the issuance of bonds which would be repaid by that special tax, again, over a term of anywhere from 15 to 30 years. However, before a Community Facilities District can be formed, it requires a combination of both the proceedings previously mentioned; namely, it requires a notice and hearing, and if there is a majority protest the public entity, such as the City, could not proceed. However, after the protest hearing, if there were an insufficient number of protests, in order to issue bonds which are paid for by this special tax, an approving vote of two-thirds (2/3) of the registered voters in the City voting in the election is required. The difference between the General Obligation Bond tax and the Special Tax is that the Special Tax is not levied at a uniform rate; it could be levied at a uniform rate, but it typically isn't. It is typically levied in much the same way as an assessment would be levied. Specifically, an engineer would be hired to put forth a Special Tax methodology, and that tax would be spread based mostly on the benefits that would be received by each of the parcels involved. The last type of municipal bond that the City could issue to finance the sewer improvements is what is known as a Revenue Bond. Revenue Bonds are, in this context, paid from rates or charges, which are distinguishable, under the law, from taxes or assessments. Rates or charges can be levied after a notice and public hearing. The bonds that would be supported by rates or charges would be issued after a proceedings which included a notice and a hearing, and at the hearing if 15% of the registered voters protested or if the owners of 15% in area of the area to be served by the sewer improvements protested, then the City would be forced to hold an election on the issuance of those bonds. If owners of 50% in area of the property within the proposed district that would be served by the sewer improvements protested, then the City would be forced to abandon the proceedings. Mr. Strauss reviewed the four different sources of payment or types of bonds, as follows: 1. General Obligation Bonds - Are secured by and payable from property tax. Requires a two-thirds vote of approval. 2. Special Tax - Requires a two-thirds (2/3) vote and also requires a notice and hearing, and an opportunity to protest before proceeding with the two-thirds vote. 3. Assessment Bond - Requires a notice and hearing and an opportunity for a majority protest. 4. Revenue Bond - Has the combination of having an election if 15% or more protest, however, if 50% or more protest, proceedings must be abandoned. Each of these options are exclusive of one another, and each provides that if there is a failure in the proceedings for one reason or another the City cannot proceed for a period of time, anywhere from six months to one year; however, that would not preclude consideration of another avenue. This concluded the presentation by Mr. William Strauss. Mayor Swanson thanked all the consultants for their presentations. The Mayor then asked if anyone had any information on the current costs for a new septic tank system. The City Manager responded, saying that the source of the information comes from Atlas Cesspool Service. Currently, the installation of a 1200 - 1500 gallon septic tank system in conjunction with a cesspool and 51x 40' seepage pit costs in the range of $15,000 to $16,000. In addition, it is recommended that the septic tank be pumped about every 2 years to keep it properly maintained and in good working order. The cost of pumping is in the range of $150 to $200. The Mayor entertained questions and comments from the floor. It was requested that comments be limited to 3 minutes. Mr. Robert Fox 13 Outrider Road Mr. Fox expressed his appreciation to all the consultants for their presentations, and directed his comments and question to the Mayor. Mr. Fox stated that his impression from the presentations is that it is a foregone conclusion that the City must have this sewer 0 W system, and asked if this is a correct interpretation. He said that he has heard no evidence or testimony indicating that it is really necessary. Mr. Fox asked 'if the City is in danger. For example, on one of the maps which were­.-P.rpsented by Mr. Tedesco there was a shaded area indicated as a hazardous area. It appeared that this area included the Flying Triangle area. Mr. Fox asked if the entire City is a hazardous area. Mayor Swanson replied that the experts had been asked to give testimony in general terms and by no means intended to give the impression that having sewers is a necessity. The Mayor expressed her disappointment that that was the message received and stated that was not the intent of the meeting. Mayor Swanson referred Mr. Fox's question regarding whether or not the City is in danger to'Mr. Tedesco and Mr. Zeiser. . Dr. David Basque 49 Eastfield Drive Dr. Basque stated that he has been a resident of Rolling Hills for 21 years and, in that time, he has spent approximately $150 to $200 for pumping of his septic tank. Dr. Basque disagreed with some of the figures in the summary that was sent to all the residents, and suggested that another summary with input from some of the residents be sent to the estimated 475 families not present at the meeting. According to research material collected at the library, Dr. Basque said that 65-70% of all water that goes into the ground, either through a septic tank or from rain water, is lost through evaporation and through transpiration into the vegetation in the area. Dr. Basque also commented that the summary should have made it clear that each property owner would pay $2300 for 30 years, for a total of $69,000. Another concern expressed by Dr. Basque was the possibility of the cost of the project being overrun. Dr. Basque sited studies of the Malibu project by the Rand Corporation, which is very well known and which has done many studies on public works projects all over the country, indicating that there is always at least an overrun of 100-120% on any of these projects. If that is the case, then the cost would actually be in the neighborhood of $120,000 per household rather than the $69,000 per household. Dr. Basque also asked for clarification regarding the sewer connection and hookup fee, which it is his understanding is $2700 per homeowner. However, apparently this fee does not cover the cost for the sewer lateral from the house to the -'IT" connection at the property line, which could be in the $4000 to $5000 range, according to the Rand Corporation figures. Mayor Swanson referred the statement on water evaporation and transpiration to Mr. Tedesco. Mr. Tedesco said that the 210,000 gallons of water per day was assumed to be going into a septic tank, in which case evaporation and transpiration generally don't come into play because the water is being introduced at a much deeper level. Evaporation and transpiration take place when water hits the trees, shrubs and ground, and then runs off. Mr. Zeiser agreed with Mr. Tedesco. Mr. Zeiser said that with rainfall the major portion will run off or evaporate; however, with a seepage pit most of the water will drain down laterally and will not evaporate. Mr. Bennett commented on Dr. Basque's concern regarding the possibility of the cost of the project being overrun. Mr. Bennett said that when an Mr. Tedesco said that the area on the map that was shaded and identified as a hazard area was field visited and verified, and it was determined that at this time it would not be appropriate to construct a conventional sewer system in that area because of the 00 existing slides that are occurring in that area. Mr. Zeiser addressed the question of there being a hazard to the City, and ri stated that the purpose of showing the map that he presented was to Lo indicate that there are numerous areas within the City that are purported to be on or part of ancient landslides. From the CO geologist's standpoint, technically, it is not a good idea to introduce water into the ground if it is already in an unstable < situation or in a potentially unstable situation. It is very difficult to predict whether or not there is imminent danger or hazard. From a risk management standpoint, it isn't advisable to put the water into the ground. Dr. David Basque 49 Eastfield Drive Dr. Basque stated that he has been a resident of Rolling Hills for 21 years and, in that time, he has spent approximately $150 to $200 for pumping of his septic tank. Dr. Basque disagreed with some of the figures in the summary that was sent to all the residents, and suggested that another summary with input from some of the residents be sent to the estimated 475 families not present at the meeting. According to research material collected at the library, Dr. Basque said that 65-70% of all water that goes into the ground, either through a septic tank or from rain water, is lost through evaporation and through transpiration into the vegetation in the area. Dr. Basque also commented that the summary should have made it clear that each property owner would pay $2300 for 30 years, for a total of $69,000. Another concern expressed by Dr. Basque was the possibility of the cost of the project being overrun. Dr. Basque sited studies of the Malibu project by the Rand Corporation, which is very well known and which has done many studies on public works projects all over the country, indicating that there is always at least an overrun of 100-120% on any of these projects. If that is the case, then the cost would actually be in the neighborhood of $120,000 per household rather than the $69,000 per household. Dr. Basque also asked for clarification regarding the sewer connection and hookup fee, which it is his understanding is $2700 per homeowner. However, apparently this fee does not cover the cost for the sewer lateral from the house to the -'IT" connection at the property line, which could be in the $4000 to $5000 range, according to the Rand Corporation figures. Mayor Swanson referred the statement on water evaporation and transpiration to Mr. Tedesco. Mr. Tedesco said that the 210,000 gallons of water per day was assumed to be going into a septic tank, in which case evaporation and transpiration generally don't come into play because the water is being introduced at a much deeper level. Evaporation and transpiration take place when water hits the trees, shrubs and ground, and then runs off. Mr. Zeiser agreed with Mr. Tedesco. Mr. Zeiser said that with rainfall the major portion will run off or evaporate; however, with a seepage pit most of the water will drain down laterally and will not evaporate. Mr. Bennett commented on Dr. Basque's concern regarding the possibility of the cost of the project being overrun. Mr. Bennett said that when an overrun occurs, one must look at how the cost was determined, whether it was judged on preliminary costs, concept costs, or final design costs. The goal of ASL Consulting Engineers is to stay within 2% to 8% of the estimated cost. An exceptional overrun is 10% to 15%. In the 38 year history of ASL, the rule has been within 2-8% rather than the exception of 10-15%. Mr. Tedesco addressed the question regarding the hookup fee, and said that it will vary with each individual house. Mr. Tedesco gave a breakdown of the estimated $2700 connection and hookup fee, as follows: the Los Angeles County Engineers Office has a connection fee of $154; the County Sanitation District's connection fee is $725; and, assuming an average length of 50 feet of lateral from the property line to the house at a cost of $30 per foot, for a total of $1500 for the lateral. The lateral from the sewer main to the property line has already been included in the estimated construction costs. Mr. Harry Houghton 9 Outrider Road Mr. Houghton said that in the past when there has been discussion of sewers it was because of some septic tank problems, and he asked if residents in the City are experiencing problems with their septic tank systems. The Mayor replied that some people are having problems with their septic tanks. Mr. Harold Lund 2 Packsaddle Road East Mr. Lund remarked that his interest in this matter began a couple of years ago when he was told about the initial geology reports which basically stated that the potential for activating ancient slides increases in proportion to the, amount of water introduced into the ground. He said that although some people are at more risk than others, it seems that Rolling Hills is the type of community where neighbors work together to help one another to make it a better place to live, and to make it less likely for someone to lose their home in the future. Mr. Lund thanked the Council for proceeding with the feasibility study, and said that he feels it has been a worthwhile endeavor. He asked if there is any legal hazard if, after given the information that the risk of land instability increases as the amount of water put into the ground increases, the City elects not to put in those things that prevent the water from going into the subsurface and in the end someone loses their home. He also commented that there are some residents that are not as fortunate as Dr. Basque, and who spend much more than $150 per year on their septic tank systems. Mr. Strauss responded to the question and stated that the City does not have an affirmative legal duty to impose a sewer system on the residents. Mr. Paul Iacono 93 Saddleback Road Mr. Iacono informed the audience that he is a licensed civil and structural engineer in the State of California, and has done quite a bit of subdivision work in the area. Mr. Iacono said that he has never seen a project come in at the estimate and that it would probably cost 2 or 3 times the estimate. He also stated that a 50 foot lateral tie-in from the house to the property line isn't realistic and in some instances this could be as great as several hundred feet, which would run into the tens of thousands. Mr. Iacono questioned whether or not the problems involved in excavating the soil and hard rock in the area were taken into consideration when calculating the estimated cost. He pointed out that if it is decided to install sewers it could mean a couple of years of inconvenience during the construction. Being in the construction business, Mr. Iacono installs septic tank systems all the time, which usually run between $6000 and $7000, and he couldn't understand how Atlas arrived at an estimated cost of $16,000. Mr. Iacono feels that if there are problems with some of the septic tank systems, the people involved should spend the relatively few dollars to repair the problem and not involve the entire City in such an expensive endeavor. I. LJI O� Mr. Tedesco commented that ASL has also done quite a bit of work on the Peninsula, and the cost estimates were based on previous projects in the area within ;the• last - year . Mr. Ray Schaefer 69 Eastfield Drive Mr. Schaefer stated that he thinks that the majority of residents have the mistaken impression that the cost of this project is only about $2000. He feels that another letter needs to go out explaining that the cost would be upwards of $2300 per year for 30 years. Mr. Schaefer asked how many individual cases are there of land slippage and houses threatened in Rolling Hills. He remarked that the City of Rolling Hills is at least forty years old and, in that time, the number of cases of land slippage indicates that the septic tank systems have served the City well. If a sewer system had been installed when he first built his home, 38 years ago, he would have paid $90,000 by this time. As it stands now, the only cost that he has incurred is the cost to have the septic tank pumped every 3 years. He asked that the alternative of modifying the existing septic tank system be discussed further; in particular, what kind of modification would be required or advised if the City were to continue to have a septic tank system. Mayor Swanson commented that one cannot compare today's dollars with dollars from 30 or 40 years ago. The Mayor also assured Mr. Schaefer that everyone's comments would be noted and taken under consideration and review. Mayor Swanson stated that the houses that have had problems with slippage are in the Flying Triangle and the number of homes involved is a matter of record. At this time, the City does not have any information that any other houses are having similar problems. The Mayor remarked that the City has had septic tanks ever since it began, 50 years ago. At that time, however, the houses were only vacation houses and were very small. Those small, two bedroom, ranch style homes are no longer here. Today, the community is more dense, the homes are much larger, and our lifestyles have changed and are sometimes wasteful. Some of the homes today have 5 or more bathrooms. All of these things have to be taken into consideration. This doesn't necessarily mean that the City favors a sewer system, but we must be aware of the environment around us. Mr. Bill Bennett said the possibility of forming a provide an organized method o systems throughout the City. alternative with regards to other modification plan would be Mr. Jim Brogdon 5 Maverick Lane that in the ASL report they discussed Septic Tank Maintenance District to f maintaining the existing septic tank This would be the only feasible the existing septic tank systems; no possible or appropriate. Mr. Brogdon said that the survey which was sent to the residents should have been a two part question: (1) Do you want sewers? and, (2) Would you pay for the cost of the sewer system? Mr. Brogdon said that yes, he would like to have sewers, however, he does not want to pay the price. They have had septic tank problems and have learned how important proper maintenance of the septic tank is. He has to have his septic tank pumped every couple of years at a cost of about $115 each time. Also, twice, pipes in the septic tank broke and had to be replaced (the old pipes were clay but now they use pvc). But, he believes that good septic tank maintenance and management will work favorably. He asked if there is a city-wide problem or only individual problems. He believes with proper care and maintenance, the septic tank systems work fine. Mr. John Husnak 34 Portuguese Bend Road Mr. Husnak stated that he has never had anything done to his septic tank system and has never had any problems. He is completely against any sewer system. Mr. Dick Hoffman 3 Hillside Lane Mr. Hoffman stated that this whole issue boils down to the cost/benefit ratio of the sewer system. Mr. Hoffman said that the inconvenience of pumping the septic tanks or the occasional smell isn't the issue, and this isn't a problem for most residents of the City. Those reasons certainly would not be sufficient to warrant installing a sewer system. However, he feels that there is a city-wide potential problem, that of land slippage. He said that Mr. Zeiser was a real gentleman when he displayed the map of the landslide areas in Rolling Hills. Mr. Hoffman then displayed different map indicating mapped, known, ancient landslides in Rollin Hills, however, he said that his map, prepared by George Cleveland i 1976, still doesn't include all the landslides in the City. H pointed out many areas in the City that are either on or adjacent to ancient landslides. Mr. Hoffman also remarked that Mr. Zeiser isn't the only geologist that has expressed concern regarding this problem. Mr. Hoffman quoted Mr. Keene, the County's geologist, as saying "it would be the most positive thing that the City of Rolling Hills could do, to go on a sewer system." Mr. Hoffman also quoted a couple of other geologists that feel that the City should go to a sewer system. He said that, according to Mr. Tedesco, the sewer system would cost an estimated $18 million, which he doesn't look forward to paying any more than anybody else. However, he said that if there is one more occurrence of a landslide in the City, he believes that property values will drop at a rate quadruple to the cost of the sewer system. Mr. Hoffman said that in order to keep the status quo, sewers would be good insurance. He agrees that it is terribly expensive but, at the very least, the residents must become informed. He said that if it is decided not to proceed with sewers, that is fine as long as it is based on an informed decision. Mr. Hoffman remarked that if he educated himself and learned that his property was sitting on an ancient landslide, he would fight with everything he had to make sure that there was a sewer system. Mr. George Feister 5 Buckboard Trail Mr. Feister asked if the geologic hazards that have been mentioned previously have been field checked. He stated that the maps which have been prepared by Mr. Cleveland are aerial maps. Mr. Feister pointed out that Mr. Cleveland notes that he has not verified these maps. Mr. Feister said that in geology, anything that is mapped by aerial photos must be field checked. Mr. Feister asked Mr. Zeiser if he had personally checked these landslides that were indicated on the map, and Mr. Zeiser replied that he had not. Mr. Feister reported that there is another map that was prepared by 3 famous geologists, and it does not show all these landslides that are shown on the Cleveland map. Mr. Feister said that their map was prepared before the days of aerial photos, and they field mapped by walking over the ground. He went on to say that he hates to see everybody get worried about these supposed hazards until it is determined whether or not they are really there. He continued that obviously there is no doubt about the Flying Triangle and Portuguese Bend; these ancient landslides are on everyone's map. Mr. Feister remarked that he would not like to see people stampeded into thinking that we live in such a hazardous area. Mr. Zeiser commented that it is standard engineering geolo practice to map a regional area, such as the Peninsula, using aeri photographs because you can get a bird's eye view, and it is possib to look at certain characteristics, which are called morphology geomorphology, some of which typify landslides or landslide terrain. As Mr. Feister noted, this region is well noted for its landslides. Mr. Zeiser said it is not a bad idea to conduct a field investigation in the City to determine where the high risk areas are. Mr. Zeiser stated that he really didn't have a good feel for the cost for such an investigation. NW • Mr. Herb Agid 60 Portuguese Bend Road Mr. Agid said that r,-he;has_.yread a scant article or two about new scientific techniques used V,in Sweden and other countries where land and water were becoming scarce, and they had learned to cope with these problems using some new technology for disposing of waste and water. He asked if any of the panelists had any,/knowledge of this new technology. However, none of the consultants"were aware of this new technology that Mr. Agid spoke about, and the Mayor said that it would be researched. Mr. Paul Grubs 1 Hackamore Road Mr. Grubs said that one thing that should be mentioned in this discussion is that the water being discharged from the septic tanks is "special" water, i.e., it contains many different chemicals such as amino complexes, various detergents, etc. He said that he believes there are a great deal of stratifications of various clays, which react with certain chemicals causing slippage. Mr. Grubs CO commented that although he is not in favor of a sewer system, he also rl does not want to see his property value slip away, literally, and LO asked if anyone has studied the chemical reactions that take place and the ramifications of those reactions. He feels this type of information would be beneficial, and we could look at what kind of m impact these chemical reactions could produce. He said that if the Q chemistry in the Flying Triangle were studied it might be learned that the landslide was due to chemical reactions as much as it was to water flow. He stated that what holds this peninsula together are ancient salts from the sea, i.e., magnesium, calcium, sodium, etc. If enough water saturates these salts and the clays, he feels the slides will continue. Mr. Zeiser addressed the comments made by Mr. Grubs, and said that what Mr. Grubs is speaking about is the study of clay mineralogy and how clays interact with other anions and cations. Mr. Zeiser said that he is not an expert on that subject but he said that Mr. Grubs is correct in stating that certain things do react with the clays to either increase or decrease the amount of absorption of the fluids and does change the physical properties of the clays. In some areas, to treat slope stability, it has been proposed that people pump into the ground certain chemicals to react with these very treacherous clays to render them less harmful: However, he does not know to what extent this kind of thing is done. Mayor Swanson asked if this type of slippage, caused by chemical reactions with the clay, occurs suddenly or is it something that happens slowly. Mr. Zeiser replied that generally it is a slow process. Mr. Zeiser commented that in most hillside areas that he has seen the phenomenon of slippage, commonly referred to as hillside creep, it has happened very slowly and wasn't a rapid occurrence. It is usually noticed by cracks in the foundation, sliding doors and windows that don't open or close properly, interior doors that do not continue to open or close properly, etc. This signifies that somehow or other the structure is undergoing some kind of distress or change. Mr. John Buchanan 19 Bowie Road Mr. Buchanan stated that he is both a registered civil engineer and a licensed engineering contractor. Mr. Buchanan informed the audience that he used to have a lot in Portuguese Bend. He said that he is fully aware that by the time you realize that you have a problem it is too late to do anything about it. He said it is necessary to prepare in advance. Mr. Buchanan stated that he had a couple of practical questions for Mr. Strauss. He asked Mr. Strauss if each of the four financing methods would be tax deductible for income tax purposes, by the property owner. Mr. Strauss replied that the two types of financing that involve a tax would be fully deductible just the same way that property tax is deductible. The annual installments of the assessments would only be deductible to the extent that they represented interest. It would be necessary to make a calculation annually to determine what portion of the assessment installment represented interest. The principal amount of the assessment would be added to the base of the property itself, thereby having some tax advantage. With respect to the Revenue Bonds, to the extent that the bonds are paid through rates or charges, it would be necessary to calculate what portion of those rates or charges represented interest on the bonds and what portion represented the principal. Basically, the two types of tax are fully deductible, and the other two options would involve a calculation to determine what portion represented interest, which would be deductible the same way that mortgage interest is deductible. Mr. Buchanan then remarked that he is aware of another assessment district which has been done in two steps. The first step involved the engineering work and a great deal of the legal work in anticipation of issuing bonds. This first step was paid for under a first stage district. Then, the plans were prepared, the bids were received, and if the bids were within the acceptable range so that the ultimate final amount could be determined within 10 - 15%, the second portion of the district was formed and those bonds were issued. Therefore, no one was responsible for the whole amount at one time, only for a small portion of the amount until the final amount was determined. This was suggested by Mr. Buchanan as a solution to the concern that the project might be greatly overrun. Mr. Buchanan asked Mr. Strauss if he was familiar with this type of financing plan. Mr. Strauss replied that he was familiar with this type of financing, and said that what is done is that the assessment is levied in phases so to speak. The engineering, design, feasibility study, etc., would be the first step, and the cost of that would be levied against the property owners. Then, if there was a decision to proceed, the actual construction costs and so forth would be levied. Mr. Buchanan asked what the estimated cost for engineering and design was, and the Mayor and Mr. Strauss said that the estimated cost for this part of the project was $2 million. Mr. Buchanan asked if the financing costs would come in the first stage or the second stage, and Mr. Strauss said that the financing costs would apply to the second stage of the project. Mr. Chester Jenkins 10 Southfield Drive Mr. Jenkins directed his question to the geology consultant, Mr. Zeiser. Mr. Jenkins wanted to know what kind of impact there would be on the ground generated from cutting some 25 miles of trenches and from trenching to a depth of 24 feet in some instances, as opposed to the hazards generated from ground water seepage from the septic tanks. He said that he feels there are two kinds of hazards, one caused by cutting into the soil and another caused by water. Mr. Zeiser explained that construction would be done in sections. It is standard construction practice to shore up the sides of any trench while the trench is temporarily open, thereby providing some system of stabilization. Mr. Jenkins then asked why sewers would not be constructed in the Flying Triangle. Mr. Zeiser said that it wouldn't be advisable to construct sewers in this area since, in his opinion, it is still moving. Mr. Tedesco explained that the decision not to install sewers in the Flying Triangle was based on the assumption that the trench would actually cut into the portion of the slide area that is still moving, which could in fact accelerate the sliding in that area. Mr. Tedesco commented that before any construction was begun anywhere in the City, they would actually go out and take borings to determine where they could and could not construct a sewer system. Georgia Ferderber 3 Poppy Trail Mrs. Ferderber stated that she has lived at this residence for 30 years and has never had to spend anything for septic tank/cesspool maintenance. so J� �I She said that she has never heard of a landslide caused by cesspools, but the landslides that she has heard of were caused by engineers who didn't know what they were doing and didn't test things properly. Mrs. Ferderber's concerns were in the area of liability insurance on the part of the City, and questioned whether or not the City would pay for any landslides that might be caused by them. Mrs. Ferderber said that she landslide caused, in her opinion, installation of some utility lines. installation of some electric wires then, certainly, building a sewer problem. Mr. William Hines 73 Eastfield Drive has experienced the danger of a by engineering error during the She believes that if the can cause a landslide problem system could cause a landslide Mr. Hines said that the 77,000,000 gallons of effluent is kind of a frightening figure but when compared with the amount of rainfall it is insignificant. Mr. Hines presented some rainfall calculations, indicating that the amount of water introduced into the ground from rainfall is many times the amount of effluent from the septic tanks, even allowing for 70% evaporation. He asked that one of the consultants comment on how sewers could be beneficial in handling the water from rainfall. Mr. Bill Bennett explained that it is difficult to determine the amount of water from rainfall that actually penetrates into the subsurface. He said that runoff can vary anywhere from 60% to 90% depending on the permeability of the subsurface. It is generally agreed that any amount of water that can be kept out of the subsurface the better. Mr. Zeiser commented that each area and each lot is going to be different. That is why, apparently, some systems have perked successfully for 30 years and others have not. Mr. Zeiser said that what he is trying to stress is that putting water into the subsurface, particularly given the geology of the area, is something that he would advise against. Mrs. Bea Fischer 1 Southfield Mrs. Fischer said that they system for 40 years with no problems. some research on the management of educational program on how to keep properly. This wouldn't cost any money Mr. Victor Martinov 33. Chuckwagon have had the same septic tank She suggested that the City do septic tanks, and provide an a septic tank functioning and would be beneficial. Mr. Martinov asked the geologist if the risk or potential risk of a landslide increases with the passage of time. And, if so, what is the progression of the increased risk. Mr. Zeiser said that this is a difficult question to give an absolute answer on. He explained that when someone puts in a cesspool or septic tank system, it is assumed to be an open system; thus, it is not to hold water, it is to pass water through. Historically, however, it has been learned that the systems are not open, they are partially closed. Therefore, over a period of time some of the water is retained in the subsurface. In terms of time, Mr. Zeiser said that he does not have enough information to answer that question. Historically, it has taken as much as 30 years, sometimes less. Mr. Martinov asked if the risk remains static or does it increase with time. Mr. Zeiser explained that it depends on the system. If it is truly an open system, the risk would remain static and unchanged. However, the more that the system becomes closed the higher the risk and the rate of increased risk would accelerate. Mr. John Bennett 3 Eastfield Drive Mr. Bennett asked if it is possible to use sonar to determine if the water table is building up and where. Mr. Bennett also asked about the density of the City. He remarked that our City is relatively rural and doesn't seem to have the density to warrant a sewer system. Mr. Bennett also wanted to know if surface watering, such as watering lawns and shrubs, is a threat to the water table. Also, Mr. Bennett asked if it is possible or feasible to have some kind of annual certification of the septic tanks to ensure that they are properly maintained. Mr. Zeiser said that in terms of determining the level of ground water probably the best method is to drill borings down and take samples. Sonar might not be reliable because of the different densities in the bedrock material. Regarding the density of the community, Mr. Zeiser stated that the community as it was 30 years ago is not the community it is today, nor will it be the same community 10 years from now. He believes that the projection indicates more water going into he ground instead of less. Mr. Zeiser commented on the question of watering vegetation, and said it does contribute to underground water storage. How much depends on how one waters and what kind of vegetation they have. Mr. Don Gales 19 Middleridge Lane North Mr. Gales said it is his understanding that flushing of toilets uses approximately 4 or 5 gallons of water with each flush, and accounts for a major portion of the water usage. Mr. Tedesco said that is a large percentage of the water usage but not most. Mr. Gales said that he has heard of a new technology in toilets that uses about one-half the amount of water as the traditional toilet. Mr. Bennett said anything that anyone can do to minimize the amount of water introduced into the ground would be a good idea, whatever that might be. Mr. Howroyd 7 Maverick Lane Mr. Howroyd wanted to know what the annual cost will be for maintenance and continuation of the system once it has been accepted by the County. He remarked that he doesn't feel that sewers are an advantage for him, it is a burden that would be placed upon him. Also, he feels everyone should be responsible for their own systems. He does not mind taking care of his cesspool when necessary, but he does not feel that he should be obligated because someone else is having a problem. He expressed his skepticism that the project would be able to be constructed for the estimated cost, and believes it is likely that it will be overrun. Mr. Tedesco stated that the annual cost, at this time, is $31, which partially is .distributed to the Los Angeles County Engineers' Office and partially to the County Sanitation District. He has no way of predicting what the fee might be in the future. Mr. Shurl Curci 85 Saddleback Road Mr. Curci wanted to know if the costs that were quoted for a new septic tank system and for the one-time only price for the sewer 0 0 M system, were both cash prices or if they included a finance charge. Mr. Curci also asked if there has been an estimate calculated for possibly installing sewers in phases. He also wondered whether the City has considered doing districts within the City without doing the whole City in its entirety. The Mayor commented that the City has not considered anything specific as of yet, however, they will look at all possibilities. The City Manager responded to the question regarding comparison of costs, and stated that the $16,000 figure for a septic tank was a cash price, and the $25,000 estimate for the sewer system included a finance charge. A cash price for the sewer system would be approximately $23,000 ($18.1 million - $1.9 million divided by 710). Mr. Vic Martinov 33 Chuckwagon Mr. Martinov commented that, recently, he got two estimates for a new septic tank system and cesspool installation, one from Atlas and one from Hoffman & Sons. The estimates ranged from $14,000 to $16,000. He said that he would be happy to double that figure and pay for installation of sewers. Mr. Martinov also remarked that everyone should keep in mind the property values in relation to the cost of a sewer system. Mayor Swanson recapped the highlights of the meeting. Basically, the following were items of concern or interest: 1. Most people are concerned with the high cost of the project. 2. Everyone learned that many people have not maintained their septic tank systems the way that they should. 3. There are people that are concerned with the ground stability relative to the sewer construction; if it were to be installed what effect would it have on the stability of the land. 4. Concerned with the stability of the ground if effluent is allowed to continue to be ejected into the ground indefinitely. 5. Concern expressed with the protection of property values. 6. Discussed mechanical management of septic tanks. 7. Concern expressed about the increase of risk with the passage of time. The Mayor commented that the Council would take all the concerns and comments under discussion. The Council's hope for this meeting was to raise the awareness of both the residents and the Councilmembers regarding this issue. The Council tried very hard, and hopefully was successful, not to take one position or another; they tried to remain neutral. The Council wanted to keep the discussion on a scientific level and not on an emotional level. Mayor Swanson stated that the Council will look both at the sewer system as it has been proposed and at the present septic tank system. They will consider whether or not there needs to be some control over the wastewater as it is now introduced into the ground. There being no meeting at 10:13 p.m. APPROVED: Mayor further comments, Mayor Swanson.adjourned the City Clerk