4/11/1988RM
MINUTES OF A
REGULAR MEETING OF THE CITY COUNCIL
CITY OF ROLLING HILLS, CALIFORNIA
April 11, 1988
A regular meeting of the City Council of the City' of Rolling
Hills was called to order at the Administration Building, 2 Portuguese
Bend Road, Rolling Hills, California, by Mayor Swanson on Monday,
April 11, 1988, at 7:43 p.m.
ROLL CALL
PRESENT: Councilmembers Heinsheimer, Leeuwenburgh, Murdock,
Pernell, Mayor Swanson
ABSENT: None
ALSO PRESENT: Terrence L. Belanger, City Manager
00 Michael Jenkins City Attorney
Betty Volkert Deputy City Clerk
Anna Pulido Administrative Intern
Capt. Dennis Gillard Sheriff's Department
co Ann Johnson Los Angeles Times
Q Carol Ryan Daily Breeze
Steve Tedesco ASL Consulting Engrs.
Rick Zeiser Zeiser Geotechnical
Douglas McHattie South Bay Engineering
Dr. Dave Basque Resident
Mr. John Bennett Resident
Mr. & Mrs. John Buchanan Residents
Mr. & Mrs. Gilbertson Residents
Pat Goodman Resident
Mr. Roger Hawkins Resident
Mr. W. J. Hines Resident
Mr. Paul Iacono Resident
Mr. Chester Jenkins Resident
Mr. & Mrs. Yu -Ping Liu Residents
Mr. Robert Modzeleski Resident
Mr. & Mrs. Rodriguez Residents
Mrs. Schleissner Resident
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CONSENT CALENDAR
Mayor Pro Tem Murdock moved that the items on the Consent
Calendar be approved as presented. Councilwoman Leeuwenburgh seconded
the motion, and it carried unanimously.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
The minutes of regular meetings that were held on March 14,
1988, and March 28, 1988, were approved and accepted as written.
PAYMENT OF BILLS
Demands Nos. 2785 through 2811, in the amount of $20,896.57,
were approved for payment from the General Fund.
OLD BUSINESS
FINAL SUMMARY REPORT ON PRELIMINARY SANITARY SEWER FEASIBILITY STUDY
The City Manager reported that the Council has before them the
final summary report of the proceedings of the February 29 meeting,
including a series of questions which resulted from that meeting
and answers to those questions, and an executive summary of the
Preliminary Feasibility Study of alternatives to on-site wastewater
disposal. As part of the report there is a series of recommendations
which are presented for the Council's consideration and action, if
they so desire.
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Mayor Swanson asked if there were copies of the report available
for the public, and the City Manager verified that there were copies
available.
The City Manager reviewed questions that were raised at the
last Council meeting on March 28, at which staff was directed to
obtain the responses. One question involved the potential impact
of 25 miles of backfilled ditches that the sewer pipes would be laid
into as the system is constructed. There were concerns that those
25 miles of trenching would present a different but similar risk
to the property in Rolling Hills, by taking the water out of the
ground from septic systems and replacing it with groundwater intrusion
as a result of water runoff collecting in the backfilled trenches.
The civil engineer from ASL Consulting Engineers, who prepared the
feasibility study, Mr. Steve Tedesco, and the geologist who made
the present ' ation at the February 29 meeting, Mr. Rick Zeiser, were
asked to be present to respond to this concern. Another question
which was raised was how one could test the soil for saturation levels
and other potential dangers and risks. The geologist will provide
a general overview as to how, one could satisfy oneself that their
septic system is correctly located and that the soils in which it
is placed are receptive to the kind of absorption that the system
is designed for.
In previous discussions about alternatives to on-site wastewater
disposal, a great deal of attention was focused upon septic
tank/cesspool systems. Several questions were raised regarding septic
systems, and Mayor Swanson asked the City Manager to review those
questions.
The City Manager discussed the following questions relating
to septic tank/cesspool systems:
1. Are there other areas in Los Angeles County that use
on-site systems for wastewater disposal?
There are wastewater disposal systems located
throughout the County, but not nearly in the concentration that
one would find in Rolling Hills, except in the County area of
Malibu, the City of La Canada-Flintridge and the City of Rolling
Hills Estates.
2. How many homes in Malibu, La Canada-Flintridge and
Rolling Hills Estates use on-site disposal systems?
There are approximately 8,700 housing units in the
Malibu Coastal Zone (coast to five miles inland) that use on-
site wastewater disposal systems. In La Canada-Flintridge,
approximately 6,000 housing units (90% of the total units) use
on-site systems. Most of Rolling Hills Estates is served by
sanitary sewers; however, there are between 350 and 500 homes,
on the east side of the City, that use on-site disposal systems.
3. How many years have these communities been using on-
site wastewater disposal systems?
In the case of La Canada -Fl intridge and Malibu, they
have used on-site wastewater disposal systems since their
inception. In the case of Rolling Hills Estates, they have
been using on-site systems for approximately the same number
of years as the City of Rolling Hills.
4. Do the Cities or County control the maintenance
activities related to the on-site wastewater disposal systems?
None of these areas control, in any way, the
maintenance of their on-site systems. All on-site wastewater
disposal systems in Malibu, Rolling Hills Estates and La Canada-
Flintridge are maintained privately, by the property owner.
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5. What is the function of the County of Los Angeles
in regulating the installation of on-site wastewater disposal
systems?
The County of Los Angeles has numerous technical
departments which have responsibilities for many kinds of
building and construction activities. In the case of a septic
system, there are basically three departments which have a
primary role in the placement of those systems. The Geology
Department has a responsibility for determining whether the
soils on a property are conducive to the placement of the system
and the proper functioning of the system. They also verify
that there are no problems with the geology that might be
triggered by the introduction of water below the surface. The
Health Department has a responsibility for determining whether
the water that is put into a seepage pit is capable of being
absorbed in a specific period of time, generally, at the minimum
rate of 2,200 gallons per 24 hours. The Building and Safety
Department is responsible for placement of the septic tank to
00 assure that it is not going to present a risk to the buildings
on the site. They are also responsible for assuring that the
plumbing from the residence to the septic tank is done correctly.
6. Are there firms that would provide septic system
CO maintenance services on a municipal franchise basis?
< In the Peninsula/South Bay area there are two firms,
Atlas Cesspool Service and Hoffman & Son, which do most of the
septic tank/cesspool construction, only one of which does septic
tank maintenance, that being Atlas Cesspool Service. Two firms
that are located in other parts of the County, which do this
type of maintenance, are Nottingham and United. In fact, their
business consists almost solely of maintaining septic systems.
7. What is the approximate cost of a new septic
tank/seepage pit system?
Based on discussions with the two firms in the area,
the cost can vary, and it really depends upon where the septic
system is located and the size of system needed for the size
of the structure being built. The system that is being used
currently by the largest provider of septic tank systems in
the area, is a pre -cast perforated material, which is safer
to install and which can be installed in such a way that is
more efficient. However, the pre -cast system is more costly.
The estimate for a typical four or five bedroom house with a
40 foot seepage pit and 1500 gallon septic tank is about $15,000.
One additional question which was posed by the City Manager
for the geologist to respond to later in the discussion was: What
would a geologist suggest to a homeowner who wanted to look at the
subsurface of their property to determine whether the soils had the
proper saturation qualities or absorption qualities, and how could
the property owner determine 'if there exists a geological condition
on the property that could cause a problem if a septic system were
installed in close proximity to this condition?
Mayor Swanson then asked the consultant from ASL Consulting
Engineers, Mr. Steve Tedesco, and the geologist, Mr. Rick Zeiser,
to respond to the questions that were previously raised.
Mr. Tedesco, ASL Consulting Engineers, addressed the issue of
the possible hazard caused by 25 miles of trenching. First, he stated
that as part of their final design, should they design and construct
this project, ASL would look at limiting in -flow of the trenches
because it can be a very serious problem, especially in a steep area,
if you get water running along the trench; it can cause the bedding
and the backfill to fail, and then the pipes in turn to fail. This
matter is always dealt with in final design. ASL Consulting Engineers
would hire a soils firm who would take additional borings in the
area, and would give ASL an idea of what the excavation would be
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like, what the backfill would be like, what the conditions of
construction would be like, afterwhich, ASL would incorporate the
soils firm's recommendations into the final design. ASL would also
incorporate methods of trenching, methods of backfill that would
be safe and that would limit infiltration. ASL Consulting Engineers,
as a policy, limits the amount of open trench at any time during
construction to 1,000 feet or the amount of pipe that can be laid
in one day. Therefore, with regard to infiltration from rainfall,
the maximum amount of trench that would be open would be 1,000 feet.
In many areas and in many cases, ASL requires that the trenches be
backfilled every night. Once a trench is open, the pipe is laid
and the trench is then backfilled. It is usually backfilled in layers
of 8 -inches to 12 -inches and is compacted to 90% of the relative
compaction. This is approximately what would be found in a natural
state. This would also limit any additional infiltration into the
trenches. They require that the backfill and compaction be tested
on a daily basis to verify that the contractor has obtained the
required compaction. In the roadway areas, where there would be
construction in an existing paved area, the existing pavement would
be replaced over the top of the trench, in which case there would
be no additional infiltration over that trench. From the study
conducted by ASL, the majority of the area to be trenched would fall
into this category, i.e., it would be in paved areas. The remaining
areas, easements and open land, would be backfilled with a slurry
cement seal or a soil cement mixture, per Los Angeles County
standards. This would be a mixture of the native soil and cement,
which forms a material that is about as hard as concrete but not
as strong as concrete. This is to limit infiltration as well as
settlement in the easement areas. It was Mr. Tedesco's opinion that,
if the trenching is properly done, it would be very unlikely that
it would add to the infiltration in the area.
Councilman Pernell asked about the possible impact of disturbing
and cutting through the underground strata, as brought up at the
last meeting by Mr. Bill Horn. Councilman Pernell asked how, or
if, it is possible to more or less knit the strata back together
to make it as strong as it was originally. Mayor Swanson asked Mr.
Zeiser, the geologist, to respond to this question. Mr. Zeiser stated
that when hillside grading or construction is performed, often times
the strata is disrupted. If nothing were put back in its place to
provide lateral support, a long-term problem might develop. However,
when a buttress or replacement fill is provided, in actuality, the
result is stronger than the original strata structure. In the case
of the sewer construction, you would not be creating a slope, only
cutting into an existing slope and then filling it back in.
Therefore, from a geology standpoint, Mr. Zeiser stated that he did
not feel that the strength of the strata would be disrupted. However,
Councilman Pernell expressed his doubts that a backfilled trench
would provide more strength than the original, undisturbed, subsurface
planes. Mr. Zeiser commented that Councilman Pernell might have
a valid point if it could be proved that the subsurface planes were
all continuous sheets. However, the area has gone through a great
deal of geologic change, and it is probable that the planes are
fractured and broken. Councilman Pernell, however, felt that the
burden of proof should be on the disruptor not on the existing
condition.
The City Manager carried this discussion one step further and
asked, given the assumption that the subsurface is shale and provides
a myriad of pathways for water to travel, what kind of things can
be done, once the shale is cut into and fractured, to ensure that
the intrusion of water on the uphill side, when it hits the
buttressing structure, does not flow down the buttress seeking the
bottom of the trench?
Mr. Zeiser stated that first one has to assume that there would
be water intrusion into the trench. If this were the case, it would
in fact follow gravity, thereby, hitting the shading or the sandy
material around the pipe and will follow that path. The City Manager
asked if it is possible that it could hit the shading material, follow
the path of the pipe, and then pickup another pathway on the other
side of the trench and flow out that way; or, is it more likely that
the water would travel down the pipe, much like a wire? Mr. Zeiser
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stated that there is a possibility that it could flow down one side
of the trench, find a permeable surface on the other side and then
follow that path. However, it was, his opinion that it would most
likely follow the trench. Mr.'J,-2,#Ae'sco stated that they have seen
in the past where water has gone .do ' w'n in the trench and has followed
along in the trench area. In areas where you have very steep slopes
one. must go to extreme measures to limit that. At times, builders
will place sandbags or pour a concrete collar every five hundred
or a thousand feet so that the water doesn't pick up speed and start
an erosion process that would carry sand material away from the pipe,
which can be a very serious problem. Special precautions to limit
the velocity of the water within the trenches is usually only done
in very steep areas because in fairly flat areas this isn't a problem.
The other question, which was addressed to Mr. Zeiser, was what
does a homeowner who is installing a septic tank system have to do
to assure themselves that they have reduced the risks related to
the location on the site and the operation of the system. What kinds
of things would a geologist advise a homeowner to do from a
geology/soils standpoint? Mr. Zeiser said that one issue is
stability.- To determine stability, one would have to do some research
CO on the site and the surrounding area, and determine what the impacts
rwould be on the geology, i.e., in what direction are the bedding
LO planes. Normally,' in the process of this research, they would
excavate borings which they would sample and log to determine, in
that specific area, what the subsurface conditions are. This would
CO satisfy the geology part of their investigation. The second half
of the investigation, the on-site sewage system, involves drilling
another series of holes which are usually smaller in diameter (V
or 8") to the desired zone at a minimum depth, and then essentially
filling it with water and waiting to see how fast it dissipates.
There are certain criteria while this is being done. It is timed
to see how fast the water level drops. This is called a percolation
test.
Mayor Swanson commented that at the public hearing which was
held 'at Miraleste High School, Mr. Zeiser stated that it is
undesirable to continue to introduce effluent into the ground, and
that it is only a matter of time, maybe 20 or 30 years or longer,
until the soil reaches total saturation and will eventually result
in some form of a slide or slope instability. Mayor Swanson said
she was concerned with that statement, and questioned whether this
has been proven in a laboratory or has actually -occurred. If Sol
in which cities has this occurred? The soil in Rolling Hills is
very different from that in La Canada -Fl intridge or Malibu, which
is rocky. How could this prediction be verified other than waiting
for a disaster to happen, at which time it is too late? What can
be done in the way of testing the soil for saturation?
Mr. Zeiser stated that what he said at the public hearing was
that if you have an open system it means that for every gallon of
water put into the ground it goes out somewhere else, i.e., it passes
through. He doesn't know that Rolling Hills is an open system; most
systems are not 100% open. Therefore, the water, at some point,
is being retained in the subsurface. Depending upon how much is
being put in, that level of water will rise. The definitive way
to determine the saturation level in the City would be to review
some water well data and see if the water in the water wells is
actually rising. Big Rock Mesa, in the Malibu area, is an example
of the impact resulting from the long-term introduction of water
into the subsurface. Mr. Zeiser explained that he is not saying
that it would absolutely happen or that it would affect the entire
City; there are probably local areas that are more susceptible than
others. The City is an area of known instability. Any additional
introduction of water into the subsurface, assuming that it is not
an open system, will collect and saturate the subgrade soil.
Mr. W. J. Hines, 73 Eastfield Drive, referenced various
statements made by Mr. Zeiser, and remarked that it is his, feeling
that there is a high degree of uncertainty with respect to ground
stability in various areas, and whether or not water is collecting
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in the subsurface or completely dissipating. It was Mr. Hines'
feeling that the installation of sewers would be a great expense
to solve a problem that may not exist. Mr. Zeiser agreed that there
is uncertainty with respect to the subsurface conditions and stated
that more geologic work needs to be done. However, he felt that
more geologic studies would be conducted before the project were
to begin. Mr. Tedesco commented that there is a lot of uncertainty
because this is only in the feasibility stage. Before there would
be any further design there would be additional geological information
that would have to be taken. Mayor Swanson explained to Mr. Hines
that the next phase, the design and engineering phase, which would
cost approximately $2 million, would go into more depth and would
involve the study of specific geologic conditions. This feasibility
study is just a sampler. Mayor Swanson explained that the
cost/benefit ratio is a major concern of the Council and that is
one reason for holding the public hearings.
Mr. Hines asked the consultants if either one of them has
conducted such a geologic study in the past, and Mr. Zeiser remarked
that he had. Mr. Hines then asked if the results were conclusive,
and Mr. Zeiser responded that they were.
Councilman Pernell remarked that the feasibility study indicates
that this project would be possible under certain circumstances and
parameters. Councilman Pernell asked if there might be conditions
that could exist, which might be discovered after further exploration,
that could cause Mr. Tedesco or Mr. Zeiser to recommend that the
City not proceed with this project?
Mr. Tedesco said that there is a possibility of that happening,
however, it is very slim, with the exception of the Flying Triangle
area. Mr. Zeiser agreed with Mr. Tedesco.
Mr. John Buchanan, 19 Bowie Road, asked Mr. Zeiser which specific
areas he feels are most prone to sliding? Mr. Zeiser commented that
they would probably be the areas that have been identified in the
past by others, i.e., per Cleveland's maps.
Mr. Chester Jenkins, 10 Southfield, referenced the last paragraph
on page 4 of the summary report, stating that it speaks in very vague
terms. Mayor Swanson explained that this section of the summary
report is composed of staff comments and was not prepared by the
consultants. The City Manager remarked that this paragraph was
intended to be a general response to the proposed question, simply
as an indication that these kind of structures can be designed in
such a way as to provide some stability to the uphill side if that
is what is necessary or to provide some kind of barrier to water
intrusion if that is what is necessary in the trenches.
Mr. Jenkins then asked Mr. Tedesco if ASL, in figuring the cost
of the project had taken into consideration the cost of the mitigation
methods mentioned previously, i.e., concrete collars? Mr. Tedesco
responded that they had taken this into consideration. Mr. Tedesco
stated that ASL did their cost analysis with the assumption that
they would have to meet all of the Los Angeles County requirements
and standards, which are extremely stringent. Mr. Tedesco said that
whatever precautions are necessary to prevent slides would be taken.
The City Manager also explained to Mr. Jenkins that the City
of Rolling Hills contracts with the County of Los Angeles for
engineering services and building and safety services, and the City
adopts the codes that the County uses, by reference, into our code.
Mr. Paul Iacono, 93 Saddleback Road, asked how the residents
would be assessed if the City proceeds with this project? Would
the assessment be on an acreage basis or, possibly, on the basis
of the amount of street frontage of the property being served. Mr.
Iacono also asked for clarification of the cost of the sewer laterals
and the connection fees. He stated that the estimated 50 foot lateral
for each home is an unrealistic calculation, and that the majority
of homes in the City would require a lateral much greater in length.
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Mayor Swanson explained that the cost estimate for the sewer lateral
was based on $30 per linear foot,. therefore, each property owner
could calculate the approximate„cos.t..of their lateral based on that
figure. The City Manager explained that the original estimate of
$2,700 for hookup had included an estimated cost of a sewer lateral
of 50 feet. The cost of the sewer lateral has now been excluded
from the calculation of the hookup fee. The connection cost would
now be computed as follows: approximately $800 for the County
Sanitation District; plus, approximately $150 for the Los Angeles
County Public Works connection fee; plus, approximately $300 to
disconnect the septic system; and, then, an additional $30 per linear
foot for the lateral, which would vary with each property. Mr. Iacono
said that it's conceivable that a property might require a 1,000
foot lateral and, depending upon the circumstances, it could cost
as much as $40,000 to hookup.
Mr. Iacono also asked if the cost of this project would be shared
equally among the property owners, irregardless of the size of the
property being served. Mayor Swanson explained that the, method of
assessment has not been determined, as of yet. Mr. Iacono said that
00
he feels that this should be decided and the homeowners informed
before the City proceeds.
Mr. Iacono also asked about the estimated duration of the
construction. Mr. Tedesco stated
that the construction would probably
m
be about one year. Mr. Iacono
asked if it might take as long as
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two years, taking into account
the weather conditions and other
variables. Mr. Tedesco said that
he doubted it would take that long.
Mr. Iacono also asked what
happens with respect to the pumping
stations when there is a power
outage. Mr. Tedesco explained that
all the pumping stations would be
radio connected to a central control
unit, and when the power goes out
an alarm is triggered at the control
station where someone is dispatched to the area with an' emergency
generator.
Mr. Hines, 73 Eastfield Drive, asked the geologist, Mr. Zeiser,.
for his interpretation of the indicated slides on the George Cleveland
maps, and whether or not they are pertinent to our situation. In
Mr. Hines' opinion, these indicated slides are not a realistic
consideration with respect to sewers. Mayor Swanson asked Mr. Zeiser
to speak on the validity of the Cleveland maps. Mr. Zeiser stated
that, according to Mr. Cleveland, his maps were prepared by studying
aerial photographs. Based on his review of these photographs he
found physical features on the land form that suggested there were
landslide masses or masses that have the characteristics of
landslides. He did not verify these with subsurface exploration,
for example, by drilling; nevertheless, mapping using aerial
photographs is a state-of-the-art method of investigation. These
specific areas would have to be studied further to determine if,
in fact, they are landslide areas. Mr. Hines stated that he believes
the kinds of slides which are indicated on the Cleveland maps are
very common in hilly areas and are not related to the subject of
reducing water content in the soil to prevent other slides.
Councilman Pernell asked in the event of a power outage, what
kind of lead time or capacity does the system have before the
auxillary pumps would have to be introduced. Mr. Tedesco explained
that most of the pumping stations probably would have two to three
hours of storage capacity. The worst case situation, assuming that
no one came to service the pump stations if the power went out, would
be an overflow problem. The system would be designed such that if
this occurred, it would overflow onto the ground and not backup into
the houses. It would be required that this be designed into the
system. Councilman Pernell asked what would happen to the sewage
that is introduced into the system after the power outage occurs
and until power is restored. Mr. Tedesco stated that it would
continue to go into the system and spill onto the ground, assuming
a backup generator were not made available. Mr. Tedesco remarked
that sewer pumping stations are not a new technology; it is something
that has been used for approximately 50 years.
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The Councilmembers then discussed the matter. Councilman Pernell
commented that staff has researched two areas, Malibu and Rolling
Hills Estates,, as examples in determining what direction the City
might take. Councilman Pernell asked what kind of criteria was used
in determining these areas as examples. Mr. Belanger explained that
the intent in using those cities, in addition to La Canada-Flintridge,
was to evaluate those cities that have a large concentration of these
kinds of systems. The primary purpose was to focus on the issue
of the on-site wastewater system. There are two systems which are
being evaluated: the current on-site wastewater disposal system
and sanitary sewers. Part of the purpose was to evaluate those cities
and areas in Los Angeles County that use a similar kind of wastewater
disposal system as the City of Rolling Hills, and to do some
comparison and provide contrasting analysis and information as to
how these cities handle the issues of maintenance and construction.
Councilman Pernell confirmed with staff that from information which
was received, none of these locales were involved in the maintenance
of the systems on a city-wide basis; the systems were independently
managed by the property owners. However, one of staff's
recommendations is to investigate the feasibility and desirability
of establishing jurisdiction over the monitoring and maintenance
of the septic systems. Councilman Pernell asked if there is anywhere
in the country where this kind of jurisdiction has been established
and, if so, what kind of problems, if any,, have been identified.
The City Manager stated that in the State of California, the one
area that has a wastewater management zone is Stinson Beach in
northern California. This zone was established by legislation, and
is called an "on-site Wastewater Management Zone". It is a zone
that the County of Los Angeles is currently looking at for areas
of Malibu that are close to the ocean. These management zones are
concerned with keeping the effluent sufficiently above the water
table so that they don't come together, which is the purpose of the
zone. Councilman Pernell asked how long the Stinson Beach zone has
been formed, and the City Manager responded that it was formed by
recent legislation, not more than two or three years ago. Councilman
Pernell asked how many homes are in the zone, however, the City
Manager did not have that information.
Mayor Pro Tem Murdock asked what the benefits would be of
establishing a septic system maintenance district, other than the
obvious benefit of being able to establish the level of effluent
in a septic tank. The City Manager explained that, in addition to
the benefit mentioned by Mayor Pro Tem Murdock,, the district would
be able to evaluate the site so that if the system begins to show
signs of dysfunction as a result of a soil condition or movement
of the material in which the system is located, the problem could
be identified and rectified before the system breaks down rather
than becoming aware of the problem after the fact and, when in most
cases, it is too late to resolve. If risk management is of concern,
one way of reducing the risk is to make sure that the location of
the septic system and seepage pits are in the best possible locations
on the site.
Mayor Swanson verified with Mr. Zeiser that another issue, with
regard to risk management,, is the monitoring of the water retention
level. City Manager Belanger explained that the primary issue is
that most individuals tend to view their property parochially, and
there is no way of getting an overview of the effect of one piece
of property relative to another when they are individually managed.
The maintenance district would provide this kind of overview and
corelation of all the information. The City Manager explained that
the maintenance district would follow the same principle as the flood
control district; all the properties involved would be taken into
account, and the effects that each one has on the other related
properties would also be taken into consideration. The down side
of this kind of district is that, once it is established, the City
acquires a tremendous amount of potential for liability. At the
present time, the liability for these systems is upon the individual
property owner.
■M.*M
With regard to staff's recommendation on page 5 of the summary
report, that being that staff be directed to immediately implement
alternatives numbers 1 and 2, Councilman Pernell asked if there is
a fiscal impact in doing Manager explained that there
would not be a fiscal impact. I ' t is simply a matter of obtaining
the necessary information and disseminating it to the Councilmembers
as quickly as possible. The City Manager indicated that, from staff's
point of view, the more important alternative is number 1. The City
Manager remarked that, since the City currently has septic
tank/seepage pit systems, an improved awareness and consciousness
of the people concerning this kind of wastewater disposal system
would benefit the community. Therefore, providing this information
to the homeowners is very important.
Councilman Heinsheimer suggested that the consultants review
the summary report and make technical comments if necessary,
afterwhich, it could be distributed to the community. Councilman
Heinsheimer remarked that there are probably many people who would
be interested in the report, and that it is written in a way that
would have a beneficial impact when published and distributed to
00 the community.
N --i Councilman Pernell suggested that all the major concerns that
LO have been expressed be compiled and circulated in addition to the
-D report. Mayor Swanson informed the Council that the City Manager
co has been compiling a file of all the information that has been
gathered during this feasibility study process. Mayor Swanson asked
< whether these additional files should be made available for the
homeowners to pickup at City Hall. Councilman . Pernell and
Councilwoman Leeuwenburgh felt that both should be provided. The
City Manager said that the concerns and questions that were raised
at this meeting tonight, especially those that are different from
the ones listed in the summary report which were as a result of the
February 29 public hearing, will be added to the file and he would
try to incorporate them into the "Question and Answer" section of
the report. Mayor Pro Tem Murdock also requested that information
be included regarding recommendations on how to treat septic systems.
Mayor Pro Tem Murdock said that many people don't know how to maintain
their septic systems and this information could raise their awareness
and be very beneficial.
Councilman Heinsheimer commented that these are really two
separate issues. The first issue at hand is the publishing, in a
coherent fashion, of the results of the feasibility study. The other
issue is providing educational information, which could be done either
parallel with or subsequent to publishing the summary report. if
acceptable to the City Council, Councilman Heinsheimer suggested
that the summary report be updated to include the most recent
concerns, the consultants review it and make whatever technical
comments might be necessary, and the Council review it, afterwhich,
a cover letter from the Mayor be prepared and sent to everyone in
the community. In the cover letter, the residents could be informed
that additional information is available and where they could get
a copy of it. Then, subsequently, as a separate action, provide
the educational information on septic tank maintenance. He thought
it was better not to link those two issues so as not to give the
impression that the City started out on a sewer feasibility study
and ended up with a septic tank maintenance program. Mayor Pro Tem
Murdock agreed with Councilman Heinsheimer. Mayor Swanson then stated
that it would be a two phase approach: the first being the
informative phase, and the second being the consciousness raising
regarding septic tank maintenance. Councilman Heinsheimer stated
that this would allow time to receive comments from the residents,
afterwhich, perhaps this matter could be put back on the agenda after
60 days or so, and the Council could determine what, if any, other
actions might be appropriate.
Mayor Swanson said that it is very important that all the
residents know that the Council is listening to them and is interested
in all their comments. The Mayor stated that the Council also has
a responsibility to thoroughly research this issue since the residents
requested that this study be conducted. The Mayor explained that
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the Council is trying to gather as much information as possible.
At this point, the Council is trying to determine how best to educate
everyone, how to improve the conditions, and what exactly can be
done to determine what is happening underground, while, at the same
time, trying to keep the costs to a minimum. An idea being considered
is the possibility of determining the saturation levels of the
subsurface and possibly conducting a joint study with the City of
Rancho Palos Verdes in specific test areas pertaining to the Flying
Triangle. This matter will be coming up in the near future, and
is something that would be done in preparation for the work that
the Corps of Engineers will be doing in the Flying Triangle area.
However,, the Mayor asked that the City Manager explore the possible
benefits of having test samples taken in certain areas in the City
to determine whether the saturation levels are high, normal, out
of the ordinary, etc., and what could be learned from these test
samples. Another possibility to consider in the future, once all
necessary and pertinent information has been gathered, would be to
put this matter on the ballot because those that would be paying
for it should be involved in making the decision. If it were to
be placed on the ballot, the earliest date possible would be the
November election. For that purpose, the City would provide
sufficient information so that the public could make a decision based
on facts. The Mayor stated that she has doubts about putting this
matter on the ballot since the majority of comments that have been
received in testimony from residents at the different public hearings
have indicated that they don't want sewers. Since those residents
that are in favor have been silent, Mayor Swanson said that she is
cautious about putting an item on the ballot unless there is a strong
indication that there are more people in favor of it. The Mayor
expressed her concern that this matter might create a furor in the
community. The Mayor expressed her feeling that everyone has a
responsibility to take care of the environment, however, we must
be very sure that whatever decision is made doesn't create a hazard
in the future.
Mr. Jenkins, 10 Southfield, asked if the depreciation cost for
the system had been included in ASL's estimated cost of the sewer
system. The City Manager said that it had not been figured into
the total cost of the system. Councilman Pernell asked what the
expected life of the system is anticipated to be, and the City Manager
said that it would have to be a minimum of 30 years if that is what
it is bonded for, and that its actual life would probably be a minimum
of 40 years or more. The City Manager explained that what Mr. Jenkins
is referring to is that every year, for 30 years, an amount of money
would be put aside so that the system could be replaced. Mr. Jenkins
said that if it were to cost $2,500 per year now, an additional $2,500
per year per homeowner would be needed to be able to replace the
system at the end of 30 years. Mayor Swanson said that there is
also a built in factor, in that figure, for maintenance of the system
during the duration of the 30 year bond. Mr. Tedesco said that the
cost estimates that were used assumed that the system would be turned
over to the County of Los Angeles and that they would maintain it.
The City would pay a monthly charge for them to maintain it once
it becomes part of their system. After the system is constructed,
it becomes the County's system and they maintain it. Councilman
Pernell asked if that is in perpetuity, and if the maintenance fee
would pay for anything, including replacement, and Mr. Tedesco said
that it should. In all the assessment districts that ASL Consulting
Engineers has done on the Peninsula, there was no set aside cost
to pay for the replacement of the system at the end of 30 years.
It was assumed that as the maintenance fee was paid every month,
the County would continue to maintain it.
Mr. John Bennett, 3 Eastfield Drive, said that he feels
discussing sewers at this time, following the recent lawsuit decisions
in the Flying Triangle, is poor timing and advantageous to the
proponents of the sewer system. Mr. Bennett asked what percentage
it would take to defeat this proposal if it did indeed come to a
vote. And, Mr. Bennett asked if it should fail to come to a vote,
if a 'petition would be sufficient to prohibit this project from
proceeding.
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Mr. Michael Jenkins, City Attorney, said that a majority protest
of the properties within the proposed district could successfully
protest the formation of such a district, however, the Council could,
by a four-fifths (4/5) vote i'`&v4ir_-ide that protest. No election
is required for the formation of a district. The Council could form
it, a majority of property owners could protest it, but, a four-fifths
(4/5) vote of the Council could override the protest and proceed
with the district. Mayor Swanson explained that it is possible that
there might be an area of the City that would approach the City
Council with a petition requesting that a sewer system be installed
in their specific area. The total amount of land that would be served
by that system would be calculated and, then, the decision to proceed
would be based on the percentage of successful petitions with the
Council. It would be possible to have isolated areas on sewer
systems.
Mr. Bennett* asked how many residents originally approached the
Council on the matter of having a sewer system. Mayor Swanson replied
that at both the 1985 and 1986 Annual Meetings of the Homeowners'
Association, a resident brought up the matter, a vote was taken,
and everyone present voted in favor of conducting a feasibility study.
00 Councilman Heinsheimer expounded on this topic and explained that
T-1 at this time there was a large body of citizens in the community
who felt that investing money, in the order of tens of thousands
or even a hundred thousand dollars, in the general improvement in
co the state of knowledge concerning the City would be beneficial.
It was the sentiment at the time that investing in geotechnical
< knowledge was a wise thing to do. In so doing, a data base has been
created that allows individual property owners to make better
decisions, in general, on how they handle their septic tanks or where
they want to live, etc.
Also, there was some interest in the possibility of small trunk
sewer systems, one of which does exist in the City, i.e., the
subdivision at the end of Johns Canyon Road. Now, it is incumbent
on those people who want to move beyond the stage of information
gathering and distribution, to actual feasibility analysis or
construction to identify those areas in the City where there is a
desire for a different system and bring those people together in
a neighborhood meeting. Then, if this is something that is desirable,
they should try to work out the mechanism with the City for possibly
creating a district that is a subset of the City. Councilman
Heinsheimer commented that, presently, it doesn't look like the
interest in the community is such that it is reasonableto expect
or to fear that a city-wide sewer project would occur in the near
future. However, the City has provided the data base so that if
people in smaller specific areas which are contiguous to the lines
that could be connected to, feel that this is something they would
like to pursue, the City would assist them.
Councilman Pernell discussed the fact that this is a very open
Council, and that the Council would not take any action without the
support of the community. Mayor Swanson assured Mr. Bennett that
the Council would only override a majority protest if it were
determined that a hazardous situation existed.
Councilwoman Leeuwenburgh asked if ASL had an estimated prorated
cost for smaller districts,, for example, whether an additional 5%
or 10% should be added onto the per resident charge for a city-wide
system. Mr. Tedesco said that the cost would increase but it would
vary widely, depending upon the size and proximity of the property
to the mainline.
As a result of the feasibility study, it would be fairly easy
to determine which areas lend themselves to small districts.
MEETING RECESSED
The meeting was recessed at 9:40 p.m.
MEETING RECONVENED
Mayor Swanson reconvened the meeting at 9:48 p.m.
112
Mayor Swanson commented that the Council had not formally
received the Preliminary Sanitary Sewer Feasibility Study. Councilman
Heinsheimer so moved. Councilman Pernell seconded the motion, and
it carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING
ZONING CASE NO. 355, YU-PING LIUr 39 CREST ROAD WEST
This matter is before the Council to hear an appeal of the
Planning Commission's approval of Zoning Case No. 355, a request
by Yu -Ping Liu for a Conditional Use Permit for a tennis court at
39 Crest Road West.
The City Manager reported that appeals were filed by the adjacent
property owners, Mr. and Mrs. 011a and Mr. and Mrs. Hawkins.
The City Manager displayed the site development plan, and
informed the Council that the proposed tennis court would be located
75 feet from, the 011a residence and 90 feet from the Hawkins
residence.
Councilman Heinsheimer confirmed with the City Manager that
the plans that the Council were viewing were the same plans that
the Planning Commission reviewed and approved.
Councilman Heinsheimer commented that Mr. and Mrs. 011a had
recently, for the purpose of this meeting, submitted another letter
indicating that they would like to see certain mitigation steps taken
if the Council were to decide to approve this request. However,
the City Manager said that one of the mitigation measures that the
011as have requested is a wall that is greater in height than is
currently allowed by Ordinance 215. Other than the wall, Councilman
Heinsheimer asked if the applicants find these mitigation measures
acceptable, and the City Manager indicated that these restrictions
are acceptable to the applicant.
The City Manager went on to say that the Planning Commission
approved Zoning Case No. 355 on a split vote of 3 to 2. The
appellants, in this particular case, did submit letters of objection
at the time of the public hearings that were held by the Planning
Commission.
Mayor Swanson opened the public hearing, and invited comments
from the audience.
Mr. Yu -Ping Liu, 39 Crest Road West, addressed the Council.
Mr. Liu informed the Council that he had sent a letter to all the
Councilmembers regarding this matter. He said that it is his
understanding that the neighbors' major objection is the noise factor.
However, Mr. Liu said it has been shown that a tennis court, per
se, does not create noise it is the people that use the tennis court
that cause the noise. Mr. Liu continued to summarize the letter
that he had sent to the Councilmembers, and pointed out that the
minimum height of the retaining wall, which is mentioned in the
letter, should have read four feet instead of five feet. Mr. Liu
stated that the fact that this will be a sunken court will be of
benefit to the neighbors and very costly to him. The Lius met with
the 011as and demonstrated how effective a retaining wall can be
in reducing the noise. With regard to the neighbors' concern about
subsequent homeowners, Mr. Liu stated that he and his family like
Rolling Hills very much, that he has a very good job as a Vice
President at Northrop and doesn't anticipate that changing and,
therefore, has no intention of selling his home and moving. Mr.
Liu also reported that Mr. Hawkins had indicated that he would
withdraw his appeal if a clause were put into the Conditional Use
Permit that there would be no playing before the hour of 8:00 a.m.
or after dusk, however, there were concerns on the part of the City
Manager about the technicality of changing the conditions of the
Conditional Use Permit after it had already been approved. Mr. Liu
reported that this proposed tennis court complies with all the
requirements of Ordinance 215 and with the guidelines of the policy
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memorandum of March, 1980. In addition, Mr. Liu stated that he is
more than willing to limit playing hours and to plant additional
screening to further mitigate the noise from the view of the tennis
court.
Mr. Hawkins, 37 Crest Road West, spoke on the issues that were
of concern to him and his wife. Their primary concern is that of
noise since the tennis court would be 90 feet from their bedroom.
Mr. Hawkins said that they moved to the City for peace and
tranquillity. Mr. Hawkins said that he met with Mr. Liu and had
told Mr. Liu that he would be willing to withdraw the appeal if
certain mitigation measures were agreed to which included restricting
the use of the court during specific hours, eliminating any portable
or permanent lighting, not having any other kind of recreational
facility on the tennis court itself, and planting landscaping
specifically for noise control. Mr. Hawkins said that they also
have concerns about subsequent neighbors and whether they would be
as agreeable to those conditions as the Lius. Mr. Hawkins commented
that he has a bias against the court being built because he would
rather not venture into the unknown and have to deal with a difficult
situation that might arise with a subsequent neighbor. Mr. Hawkins
00 said, however, that he has every confidence that Mr. and Mrs. Liu
T -i would be very responsible neighbors. Mr. Hawkins stated that, should
LO the Council decide to approve this request, he would hope that there
would be sufficient conditions in the Conditional Use Permit such
that the adjacent neighbors are protected as much as possible. If
there is a way that the concerns that have been expressed can be
< mitigated that would make everybody reasonably happy, that would
be acceptable to Mr. Hawkins.
Councilman Heinsheimer commented that something else Mr. Hawkins
should take into consideration is that at some time in the future,
it is conceivable and probable that there would be a different City
Council and Planning Commission. There is a sentiment in the
community that all the regulations are much too restrictive and that
homeowners should be allowed to develop their property as they see
fit. However, so far, this viewpoint has not prevailed, and the
current Council and Planning Commission have tried to maintain strict
requirements. But, that is not to say that this will always be the
case. Thus, it might be advisable to try to reach a mutually
acceptable agreement at this time.
Councilman Heinsheimer suggested that this matter be tabled
for a couple.of weeks to give the three homeowners involved a chance
to work out acceptable mitigation measures and have them incorporated
into the plan, afterwhich, the Council would review the revised plan
and then take action on it.
Mayor Pro Tem Murdock also had a question regarding the
mitigation measures outlined in the letter from Mr. and Mrs. 011a.
Mayor Pro Tem Murdock asked if the wall at the north end of the court
that the 011as are requesting would be in violation of the zoning
ordinance. The City Manager stated that if the wall were 4 feet
or less in height it would meet the conditions of the code; if it
were higher than that it would not. Also, Mayor Pro Tem Murdock
said that it is her understanding that conditions which are attached
to a Conditional Use Permit or Variance run with the property and
not with the property owner. The City Manager confirmed that that
is indeed the case; they are recorded with the property.
Councilman Pernell said that he interprets the letter from the
011as as a request for denial, with a fallback position that, at
the very least, mitigation measures be imposed should the Council
decide to approve the applicant's request for a Conditional Use Permit
for a tennis court. Councilman Pernell said that he, personally,
would like to take a look at the site and the proposed location of
the tennis court.
Mr. Doug McHattie, South Bay Engineering, reported to the Council
that the part of the 011a's house that would be nearest to the tennis
court is the garage. Mr. McHattie also stated that he had spoken
with Mrs. Hawkins about the mitigating landscaping, and she has a
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book which she has offered to loan the applicants, that explains
how to build the landscaping up from a small bush next to the court
to progressively taller and taller bushes that send the sound upward.
Also, Mr. McHattie pointed out that the 011a's property is located
15 feet below the Liu property.
Councilman Pernell asked Mr. McHattie if he knew what kind of
wall at the north end of the court Mr. and Mrs. 011a would find
acceptable. Mr. McHattie replied that he did not know what they
had in mind,, but there have been great advances in the materials
that walls are constructed with, such as sound absorbing blocks.
Councilman Pernell asked if the restriction on playing time
were imposed and then violated, how enforcement would be handled.
The City Manager explained that, generally, the code is enforced
on a complaint basis. If a complaint were received, a letter would
be sent or a personal visit made informing the individuals that they
were in violation of their Conditional Use Permit. If it happened
again, the Conditional Use Permit would be revoked and, if necessary,
the matter could be turned over to the District Attorney.
Councilman Pernell expressed concern about the time and cost
involved to the City, should enforcement proceedings become necessary.
The City Attorney stated that there are several things the City could
do: the City could go through a revocation procedure and then order
that the court be removed; or, if the owner refused to remove it,
the City could have it removed by having it graded out; or, the City
could go to court for an injunction to force the owners to remove
it, either before or after revocation proceedings. Also, the City
could put into the permit some condition that the owner would be
responsible for paying the costs of the removal, and that they would
be recoverable, including attorney's fees, in the event that it
becomes necessary to go to court.
Mayor Swanson ordered that the public hearing be continued to
the next City Council meeting, on April 25, 1988, and a field trip
to the site be scheduled for Wednesday, April 13, at 7:00 a.m. The
applicants were asked to stake the location of the proposed tennis
court and the height of the fence around the tennis court.
Councilman Pernell stated that the Council should act on this
request based solely on the physical characteristics and location
of the proposed tennis court, pursuant to the field investigation,
and not based on the possibility of limiting hours of play, which
would be very difficult to enforce.
NEW BUSINESS
REPORT ON BUDGETARY AND ACCOUNTING POLICIES
The Mayor said that the Council had before them a report on
budgetary and accounting policies, which was provided for their
information. The City Manager commented that it would be incorporated
into the budget.
Councilman Heinsheimer moved that the report be approved.
Councilman Pernell seconded the motion, and it carried unanimously.
OPEN AGENDA
Mayor Swanson invited public comment on any matter which was
not on the agenda.
Dr. Basque, 49 Eastfield Drive, addressed the Council about
a vegetation problem that has existed for 10 or 12 years at 41
Eastfield Drive. Dr. Basque said that when this lot was first being
developed, he noticed that the owners were planting in the easement,
and he brought this to the attention of the, then, City Manager,
however,, nothing was done about it. At the same time, the owners
also planted trees around their house. As the trees matured, the
vegetation problem became worse. Then, about a year ago, Dr. Basque
learned that the owners of this property were requesting a variance,
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and decided that this might be an opportunity to require that the
landscaping be taken care of as a condition of granting the variance.
Hence, Dr. Basque presented this suggestion to the Council at their
meeting on May 12, 1987.
At the May 26, 1987, City Council meeting, the property owner
was in attendance to present his case for a variance. Dr. Basque
referenced the minutes of that meeting.
Dr. Basque said that the reason he was bringing this to the
Council's attention was because, although the owner has removed one
tree which was located at the site of the swimming pool, the owner
has not done anything about any of the other trees, per the conditions
of the variance.
Councilman Heinsheimer commented that it needs to be determined
whether or not a landscaping plan was approved by the Planning
Commission, and, if so, whether or not it included the elimination
of view obstruction, as directed at the meeting on May 26, 1987.
Mayor Swanson stated that the best way of proceeding would be
CO for Dr. Basque to discuss this matter with the City Manager,
rafterwhich, the City Manager would execute the conditions that were
Lo applied at the time of approval of the request.
—3 MATTERS FROM MEMBERS OF THE CITY COUNCIL
co
< 3K Walk
Mayor Swanson reported that there would be a 3K walk sponsored
by the library district, on April 30, at 8:00 a.m. The Mayor
suggested that this matter be advertised in the newsletter, inviting
residents to participate as a community group. And, if any
Councilmembers wish to participate they should contact the City
Manager.
Planning Commission Applications
The Mayor announced that a number of applications and resumes
have been submitted for the Planning Commission vacancy. Mayor
Swanson said that she would like to have a committee interview all
the applicants, afterwhich, the committee would recommend three
finalists to come before the City Council for an interview.
Councilman Pernell pointed out that the term of one of the
Planning Commissioners has expired. Currently, the policy is to
routinely reappoint a Commissioner when his/her term has expired.
Councilman Pernell suggested that the Council adopt a policy whereby,
at the end of a Commissioner's term, the Commissioner would be
required to reapply to remain in that position and would be considered
along with other applicants. However, it was felt that an interview
would not be necessary since the incumbent Commissioner would already
have a record of performance.
Councilwoman Leeuwenburgh commented that it might be more
appropriate to begin this policy after giving the Commission fair
warning that this would be the new procedure, and not at a time when
there is an unexpired vacancy on the Commission.
Councilman Heinsheimer suggested that it might be a more positive
experience for the finalists if they were not interviewed in public,
and that perhaps this could be done in closed session.
MATTERS FROM STAFF
Building, Zoning, Planning, and Subdivision Procedure Charts
Mayor Swanson asked that it be made clear that the Council can
also appeal, on the "Variance & Conditional Use Permit" chart, in
the box labeled APPEAL. The Mayor also asked that the chart be made
clearer with respect to fees.
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The City Attorney said that he also has some language changes
and would like to discuss them with the City Manager before these
documents are approved.
Thus, the Mayor ordered the matter held on the agenda for the
next meeting.
CATV Survey
The City Manager explained that this is an information item,
and that the Councilmembers have received a copy of the survey which
is intended to be sent out this week. It is hoped that the results
of the survey would be available in about a month.
Fire Season Status and Weed Abatement Process
The City Manager reported that the Fire Department is beginning
to make its on-site inspections for those properties that have not
cut back weeds. The property owners are beginning to have their
weeds removed and there has been a lot of activity on the part of
the people that do this kind of work. The Fire Department's weed
abatement process will continue until the middle of May.
Councilman Pernell asked if the "NO SMOKING" signs had gone
up yet, and the City Manager reported that they have been posted
at all three entrances to the City. The Sheriff's Department has
also been briefed on this matter regarding enforcement with respect
to smoking inside vehicles.
Councilman Pernell also recommended that a notice regarding
this matter be published in the newsletter. The City Manager said
that, also, the residents would be asked to inform their workers.
Mayor Swanson also suggested that the gate guards be alerted to help
with enforcement as people enter the City. Mayor Pro Tem Murdock
asked if the trails had been posted, and the City Manager said that
he thought they had been posted but he would verify that. Mayor
Pro Tem Murdock remarked that the signs that are posted on the trails
are put up by Caballeros, and recommended that an official notice
be posted at the trail entrances. The Mayor also suggested that
the Caballeros members be requested to help with enforcement on the
trails.
Councilman Pernell remarked that a few years ago there was a
Sheriff's posse that patroled the trails and asked if that is still
in force. Captain Gillard replied that it is still in force and
normally it becomes more active in May and June.
MEETING RECESSED TO CLOSED SESSION
The meeting was recessed to a closed session at 10:50 p.m. for
the purpose of discussing pending litigation.
MEETING RECONVENED
The meeting was reconvened at 11:00 p.m.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 11:01 p.m., to Wednesday, April
13, 1988, at 7:00 a.m., 39 Crest Road West, Rolling Hills.
APPROVED:
Mayor
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City Clerk 0
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